<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1423</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/1/99 8:12:27 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 1 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1423<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Different Technologies<BR>
Percussive Maintenance<BR>
Re: Different Technologies<BR>
Re: Different Technologies<BR>
Why Visit New Worlds? (was: Re: Different Technologies)<BR>
Re: Different Technologies<BR>
Re: LEO's<BR>
Re: Different Technologies<BR>
Re: "Aslan" name debate again<BR>
Re: Different Technologies<BR>
the perils of television (was Re: LEO's)<BR>
Re: "Aslan" name debate again<BR>
Re: Inevitability of government failure or revolutions, etc. [longish]<BR>
Re: Deadfall ordinance<BR>
Re: the perils of television (was Re: LEO's)<BR>
Re: GS3/3 Solar Sails (was: Goryo-class Medium Fighter (GTL9) -  corrected)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 19:52:46 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Different Technologies<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> From: Luther Martin <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 7:00 PM<BR>
> Subject: Re: Different Technologies<BR>
> <BR>
> > Most people may not lean towards optimization, but those who design and<BR>
> > build things *do*. The rest of the world has to live with what we build.<BR>
> > <sound of laughter><BR>
> <BR>
> That is when the engineers can get their units right. ;)<BR>
> <BR>
> Then again, anyone who thinks that engineers build solely with optimization<BR>
> in mind need only look at the American automobile industry during the 70s,<BR>
> or any one of a thousand different examples.<BR>
<BR>
Under the paradigm of the times (before the Arab oil embargo of 1973),<BR>
the American auto industry _was_ optimized.  In other words, American<BR>
auto manufacturers gave their target market (the American public)<BR>
exactly what it wanted:  big, fast cars, that would last until the next<BR>
major style change (3-6 years).<BR>
<BR>
Once the paradigm shifted (gasoline costs and availability became<BR>
important concerns), the American auto industry initially quickly<BR>
shifted to small, [relatively] fuel-efficient cars, that would last<BR>
until the next major style change (3-6 years).  It took a few more years<BR>
for the industry to shift completely to the new paradigm (reasonably<BR>
fuel-efficient vehicles, built to last at least 6 years), but the<BR>
American auto industry soon adjusted to the current paradigm.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, within ten years of a major change in conditions, the American<BR>
auto industry was able to make a radical shift in focus, and therefore<BR>
once again became an optimized industry.  That seems pretty agile to me.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  The transition from one TL to the next will probably seem<BR>
disjointed at the time.  A couple of centuries later, OTOH, the<BR>
transition will appear to have been much smoother.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:50:59 -0500<BR>
From: "Lyle Youngblood" <lyley@gte.net><BR>
Subject: Percussive Maintenance<BR>
<BR>
>>> I've heard it called "percussive maintenance" -- not<BR>
<BR>
>>Ah yes, the barbaric "Tap Test", a time-honored tradition among<BR>
<BR>
> "dynamic realignment"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In my military service, we always called it "impact adjustment".<BR>
            Lyle<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:56:56 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Different Technologies<BR>
<BR>
From: Luther Martin <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Optimizing for *profit* is still optimizing, isn't it?<BR>
<BR>
It depends, if that optimization takes the form of doing one thing because<BR>
that's the way it has been done then it's tough to call it optimization.<BR>
<BR>
Even so, my point is still supported, as there is the possibility that<BR>
things which are quantifiably worse may be in use, although something better<BR>
is out there.<BR>
<BR>
In the original post you responded to, that's the claim I made, and I think<BR>
I'm going to stick with it. I mean, come on, we're talking about a world<BR>
where people actually consider the inclusion of a bicycle with a car a<BR>
selling point. A world where most people are more interested in whether or<BR>
not a car has a CD player, not how many miles it gets to the gallon.<BR>
<BR>
That would be kilometers to the liter to the metric folks on the list,<BR>
right?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:07:58 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Different Technologies<BR>
<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Under the paradigm of the times (before the Arab oil embargo of 1973),<BR>
> the American auto industry _was_ optimized.  In other words, American<BR>
> auto manufacturers gave their target market (the American public)<BR>
> exactly what it wanted:  big, fast cars, that would last until the next<BR>
> major style change (3-6 years).<BR>
<BR>
Actually, you're supporting my original point quite nicely.<BR>
<BR>
The industry may have been "optimized" as far as profit may have been<BR>
concerned, but it wasn't optimized as far as *technology* was concerned,<BR>
which is what was at issue in the thread. After all, there is something of a<BR>
question concerning whether or not designing an automobile to last 3-6 years<BR>
can be considered "optimization".<BR>
<BR>
Still, to wrangle that point back to Traveller: What's your average Far<BR>
Trader's useful lifespan? My own bet, given the nature of the Imperium, is<BR>
that it's only a little longer than it takes to pay the ship off.<BR>
<BR>
> Thus, within ten years of a major change in conditions, the American<BR>
> auto industry was able to make a radical shift in focus, and therefore<BR>
> once again became an optimized industry.  That seems pretty agile to me.<BR>
<BR>
I must have touched upon a sore point. The agility with which change *can*<BR>
come is not in question.<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav:  The transition from one TL to the next will probably seem<BR>
> disjointed at the time.  A couple of centuries later, OTOH, the<BR>
> transition will appear to have been much smoother.<BR>
<BR>
It depends on how tech level is defined. With the appearance of certain<BR>
technologies (such as the computer, jump drive, contra-gravity and<BR>
reactionless thrusters) the transition will not only appear "disjointed" it<BR>
will actually *be* disjointed.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 20:13:22 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Why Visit New Worlds? (was: Re: Different Technologies)<BR>
<BR>
Kenji Schwarz wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Personally, I'm in the same boat as you. It becomes a real problem when<BR>
> > you're designing ships and vehicles because there's no reason not to use<BR>
> > those technologies. As a result, two ships of the exact same size built by<BR>
> > different cultures will tend to be, at least functionally, *exactly* the<BR>
> > same. That may work for other people, but it doesn't for me. What's the<BR>
> > point of visiting strange new worlds and civilizations if they're all going<BR>
> > to be exactly the same?<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, *obviously*, because you can 1) make money and 2) kill them.  What<BR>
> other reason, *realistically*, do you think people *rationally* need?<BR>
<BR>
IMHO, you missed at least two other reasons for "visiting strange new<BR>
worlds":<BR>
<BR>
1.  Simple curiosity.  Terran monkeyboys will often travel to unusual<BR>
places just to see what's there.  Charles Darwin's voyage aboard HMS<BR>
BEAGLE is a pretty good example of this motive.<BR>
<BR>
2.  "Been There, Done That":  An even more potent motive for human<BR>
exploration has been the desire to be the first to visit some place. <BR>
Sir Edmund Hillary [Mt. Everest], Admiral Byrd [the North Pole], and<BR>
Neil Armstrong [Earth's Moon] are all good examples of this motive.<BR>
<BR>
Neither of the motives which I have mentioned directly involve wealth or<BR>
conquest.  They are, nonetheless, powerful reasons for human exploration<BR>
to date.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:44:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Different Technologies<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
>Personally, I'm in the same boat as you. It becomes a<BR>
<BR>
>real problem when you're designing ships and vehicles<BR>
<BR>
>because there's no reason not to use those<BR>
>technologies. As a result, two ships of the exact <BR>
>same size built by different cultures will tend to <BR>
>be, at least functionally, *exactly* the same. That <BR>
>may work for other people, but it doesn't for me. <BR>
><BR>
>What's the point of visiting strange new worlds and <BR>
>civilizations if they're all going to be exactly the <BR>
>same?<BR>
<BR>
Worlds and civilizations are a lot more than just the<BR>
technologies they use (although these technologies<BR>
have some significant effects on culture).  If the<BR>
places to which you travel are homogenous, it's the<BR>
referee's fault, not the technologies'.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:29:29 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: LEO's<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Peter said:<BR>
>IMTU I have different local police structures for each planet ...<BR>
>with different rank titles.<BR>
<BR>
Would you like to post them?<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:38:31 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Different Technologies<BR>
<BR>
On 1 Dec 99, at 20:56, Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In the original post you responded to, that's the claim I made, and I<BR>
> think I'm going to stick with it. I mean, come on, we're talking about a<BR>
> world where people actually consider the inclusion of a bicycle with a car<BR>
> a selling point. A world where most people are more interested in whether<BR>
> or not a car has a CD player, not how many miles it gets to the gallon.<BR>
> <BR>
> That would be kilometers to the liter to the metric folks on the list,<BR>
> right?<BR>
<BR>
Just to throw you - here in NZ it's offically L/100km. However most of <BR>
us use km/L or miles/gallon (Imperial, not American).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:12:02 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: "Aslan" name debate again<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Doug asked:<BR>
>Sudden thought.. the whole Aslan copied the jump-drive thing was written by<BR>
>Marc, but showed up in Travellers' Digest.. is it still canonical?<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I think Marc _told_ Joe Fugate of the "Aslan Secret", and then Joe<BR>
wrote it up. Remember, the only place that DGP material is considered<BR>
"non-canonical" is in official GURPS Traveller material. I'm sure that Marc et<BR>
al  are free to use the *concepts* created by DGP; this was part of the original<BR>
licence.<BR>
<BR>
So, for example, "jump dimming" is still canonical, even though Joe (DGP)<BR>
invented it simply so that the lights could go out in one of his scenarios ("The<BR>
Gold of Zurrian", Traveller's Digest #4). [Actually, I've just realised that is<BR>
*not* a good example, since it found its way into the MT Encyclopedia - but you<BR>
get the general idea!].<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:50:43 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Different Technologies<BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Worlds and civilizations are a lot more than just the<BR>
> technologies they use (although these technologies<BR>
> have some significant effects on culture).  If the<BR>
> places to which you travel are homogenous, it's the<BR>
> referee's fault, not the technologies'.<BR>
<BR>
"Some" significant effects on culture?<BR>
<BR>
Industrialization, television, the telegraph, the telephone, the computer,<BR>
the personal computer, the internet, hybrid seeds, the wheel, domestication<BR>
of animals, the knife, the spear, gunpowder, the plough, the camera, the<BR>
movie camera, the record album, audio and video cassettes, penicillin, LSD,<BR>
steel, the assembly line, the printing press, the photocopier, the<BR>
transistor... etc... etc...<BR>
<BR>
Technology has a little more than "some" significant effects. It can even be<BR>
argued that technology, to one extent or another, actually goes a large way<BR>
in defining the various cultures on earth.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:02:16 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: the perils of television (was Re: LEO's)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry"<BR>
><gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> <BR>
<BR>
>Ah, the perils of television.. every summer San<BR>
>Francisco gets planeloads of tourist in shorts and <BR>
>t-shirts, who proceed to develop hypothermia while<BR>
>waiting for cable cars.  Y'see they've seen <BR>
>"Baywatch", which is filmed in California, so they<BR>
>know what the weather is going to be like...<BR>
<BR>
Same thing happens in the legal and medical<BR>
professions.  Lots of people go to law school and<BR>
medical school thinking they'll soon have lots of<BR>
money, nice cars, fascinating professional problems<BR>
that get solved in an hour or two, and lots of<BR>
attractive sex partners. ...now that I write the list<BR>
down, my experience of one out of four still ain't<BR>
bad.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:02:26 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: "Aslan" name debate again<BR>
<BR>
From: <david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, I think Marc _told_ Joe Fugate of the "Aslan Secret", and then<BR>
Joe<BR>
> wrote it up. Remember, the only place that DGP material is considered<BR>
> "non-canonical" is in official GURPS Traveller material. I'm sure that<BR>
Marc et<BR>
> al  are free to use the *concepts* created by DGP; this was part of the<BR>
original<BR>
> licence.<BR>
<BR>
I thought that *nobody* could use the stuff that *only appears* in DGP<BR>
products. I remember the problem going back before GURPS: Traveller was even<BR>
around.<BR>
<BR>
> So, for example, "jump dimming" is still canonical, even though Joe (DGP)<BR>
> invented it simply so that the lights could go out in one of his scenarios<BR>
("The<BR>
> Gold of Zurrian", Traveller's Digest #4). [Actually, I've just realised<BR>
that is<BR>
> *not* a good example, since it found its way into the MT Encyclopedia -<BR>
but you<BR>
> get the general idea!].<BR>
<BR>
Yep, it was printed in a GDW product, so it's okay to use in future<BR>
products. Personally, I've advocated the de-canonization of DGP's products<BR>
in the past, and I still do, for one very simple reason:<BR>
<BR>
It's really rather absurd to insist that authors for Traveller products be<BR>
familiar with material that is only in the hands of a few and legally cannot<BR>
be reprinted, copied, or used.<BR>
<BR>
Others may disagree, and indeed they have disagreed in the past.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:51:09 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Inevitability of government failure or revolutions, etc. [longish]<BR>
<BR>
- --- tim burt <canada147@hotmail.com> wrote:<BR>
> As a Marxist and Democratic Socialist, I often find<BR>
> it amusing to see how <BR>
> other people treat Marx as some sort of demigod<BR>
> especially by those who have <BR>
> only made a cursory reading of his numerous<BR>
> writings.  For Marx, it must be <BR>
> remembered was many things and naturally there will<BR>
> be countless <BR>
> interpetations of his work.  But, I must laugh at<BR>
> the attempts that make <BR>
> East Europe, Russia or China the prime examples of<BR>
> Marx's thought put into <BR>
> action.  Marx would be the first victim of the gulag<BR>
> as were many Marxists <BR>
> in those above mentioned countries - for an economy<BR>
> which which relied on <BR>
> state-control and primacy given over to the military<BR>
> industrial complex and <BR>
> controlled by a small narrow elite was certainly not<BR>
> Marx or what has been <BR>
> termed Classical Marxists had in mind.  For Marx, he<BR>
> foresaw the emergence <BR>
> of a society based upon freely-associated producers<BR>
> (by which he meant the <BR>
> workers would have a stake in running industry or<BR>
> the economy) coupled with <BR>
> a dramatic redistribution of the world's net wealth<BR>
> (which he hoped would <BR>
> would lead to abolishing one class which was the<BR>
> most numerous in his time <BR>
> and ours - the poor thereby making everyone part of<BR>
> the Rich or the <BR>
> bourgeoise - fancy french name for the middle<BR>
> class)and prosperous content <BR>
> society which would be able to maximize production<BR>
> toward social ends <BR>
> (otherwise allow each individual to maximize her or<BR>
> his potential as a human <BR>
> being).<BR>
>     How does this all relate to Traveller. <BR>
> Traveller like all other <BR>
> cultural artifacts is product of the time in which<BR>
> it was made and out of <BR>
> the experiences contained therewithin.  RPGs,<BR>
> including Traveller, were <BR>
> created in the aftermath of the American defeat in<BR>
> Vietnam.  Many of the <BR>
> creators also served a tour of duty in S.E. Asia so<BR>
> for them a society <BR>
> ordered around the military or state service was a<BR>
> natural outgrowth (look <BR>
> at how CT had 4/5 of the six "careers" to be in the<BR>
> military and even when <BR>
> Citizens came around we had flyers & wet navy etc<BR>
> filling the gaps left my <BR>
> the Other - the mysterious outsider akin to the<BR>
> hippie experience for many <BR>
> growing up in the 1960s).  Soon Traveller developed<BR>
> an Enemy befitting <BR>
> America at that time which were the Zhos or the<BR>
> (Sov)iets.  But, reflecting <BR>
> the ever changing world around it Traveller by its<BR>
> flexibility absorbed <BR>
> other influences around it.  Trade and Commerce the<BR>
> life-blood of capitalism <BR>
> or any other society it seems gained in importance. <BR>
> Even the "Alternative" <BR>
> lifestyle found a niche in the form of the career of<BR>
> the Scouts.  The <BR>
> mutations into the other forms of Traveller be it<BR>
> MT, TNE, T4, G:T all <BR>
> reflect a fundamental anxiety which is at the heart<BR>
> of American or the <BR>
> societies of the West. Which has gripped the Western<BR>
> and now the globe since <BR>
> 1973 oil crises and the resulting paradigm shift<BR>
> that has occurred as <BR>
> Capital went global and asserted it's independence<BR>
> from the nation-state, <BR>
> along with other things such as the failures 1968<BR>
> which led to the formation <BR>
> of New Social Movements, etc. As it was expressed by<BR>
> Gramsci when he said,<BR>
> 	"The crisis consists precisely in the fact the old<BR>
> is dying and the new <BR>
> cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety<BR>
> of morbid symptoms <BR>
> appear."<BR>
> <BR>
>    What that new is?  That is the subject for<BR>
> contestation.  For some it may <BR>
> mean good old fashioned values, others it may mean<BR>
> revitalized neocapitalism <BR>
> which seeks to dismantle the old welfare state-form<BR>
> and others something <BR>
> fundamentally new which goes by the old fashioned<BR>
> name of Socialism (the <BR>
> definition of which may be incorporating some of<BR>
> Marx's above stated ideals <BR>
> in addition to new challenges).  Without exception<BR>
> if Traveller is to <BR>
> survive, it will have to coast along these turbulent<BR>
> waters to remain <BR>
> credible to all its fans without choosing one side<BR>
> or another but all the <BR>
> time tapping into the ziegest of angst of the time. <BR>
> Marx's much vaulted <BR>
> Stage theory of History was not his creation rather<BR>
> he was following the <BR>
> example of English economic historians, like Marx<BR>
> when he was writing <BR>
> Capital, saw that societies appear to be individual<BR>
> but go through similar <BR>
> stages of development which may abstracted from<BR>
> actual history.  Marx never <BR>
> meant this to serve as a master blueprint for the<BR>
> development of humanity <BR>
> but rather as a guide for human action to change the<BR>
> world by observing that <BR>
> things are not the same as they have always being<BR>
> therefore humanity has the <BR>
> ability to change its order.  Marx sought these<BR>
> changes as Social <BR>
> Revolutions.  He reasoned that the extension of the<BR>
> franchaise would allow <BR>
> in sufficiently democratic countries such as Britain<BR>
> or the United States <BR>
> that Socialism could be achieved through the ballot<BR>
> box.  As a consquence, <BR>
> Marx did not forsee the collapse of all government<BR>
> but the transformation of <BR>
> the State into one where popular will could be<BR>
> exercised without the <BR>
> repression that dominated 19th century and much of<BR>
> the third world today <BR>
> exercised by the State and Capital.  Therefore, what<BR>
> one is essentially <BR>
> taliing about is a different kind of State which has<BR>
> yet to be realized.<BR>
>     Traveller canon aknowledges that workers'<BR>
> governments have formed but <BR>
> all fall to into decay and decandence.  Which<BR>
> perhaps is due to American <BR>
> perception of the Soviet and Chinese experience. <BR>
> Following those examples <BR>
> one would have to agree that Workers' control is<BR>
> doomed but remember Marx <BR>
> saw that socialism would have to become a global<BR>
> system much as capitalism <BR>
> is today for it to be effective.  What we see in<BR>
> China as we saw in the <BR>
> Soviet Union earlier, is a capitalist class emerging<BR>
> from a country which <BR>
> remained very much feudal despite the presence of<BR>
> rapid industrialization <BR>
> protected by the state.  Much as the English genty<BR>
> began the the enclosure <BR>
> movement, thus privatization of state industry is<BR>
> going on now in <BR>
> "socialist" countries.<BR>
>    The vision of the Far Future provided by<BR>
> Traveller is sufficiently <BR>
> diverse to accomodate real socialism on one world. <BR>
> But, to believe that the <BR>
> 3I is going to evolve into a socialist state is<BR>
> highly unlikely. As we see, <BR>
> in the official and variant timelines, reformers are<BR>
> cast aside.  Impeutus <BR>
> will have to come from those who pull the strings<BR>
> which are too much tied <BR>
> into existing power structures to want to change the<BR>
> status quo - an irony <BR>
> the same quandry that we find ourselves in today as<BR>
> we enter the next <BR>
> century.  One should always remember in the 3I that<BR>
> democracy is a <BR>
> subversive word that even those who suggest it in<BR>
> the end perish.  The <BR>
> situation resembles France before the Revolution<BR>
> however, there still is <BR>
> great deal of fluidity between the classes.  So the<BR>
> better analogy is <BR>
> America today.  In short, Traveller is what you make<BR>
> it but its twists and <BR>
> turns reflect very much the reality of the times in<BR>
> which it was created.  <BR>
> It will be interesting to BITS contribution as the<BR>
> British experience of <BR>
> combining a "feudal" or inherited wealth-based<BR>
> aristocratic society with a <BR>
> dynamic capitalism is long part of the British<BR>
> experience.<BR>
>     For those interested in further readings of late<BR>
> 20th century American <BR>
> culture from a Marxist perspective.  I would<BR>
> recommend books by Frederick <BR>
> Jamerson, Mike Davis, and rather dated Michael<BR>
> Harrington for US readers.  <BR>
> For British, E.P. Thompson and much of what came out<BR>
> the Cultural Studies <BR>
> Group in Birningham.  Others, not much as Marxism<BR>
> has long been dominated by <BR>
> varying centres of influence be it Moscow or Peking<BR>
> or elsewhere.  But, I <BR>
> would wholeheartly recomend independent Yugoslav<BR>
> Marxists(part of the Praxis <BR>
> group)such as Branko Horvat or Svetozar<BR>
> Stojanovic's:  The Fall of <BR>
> Yugoslavia - Why Communism Failed.<BR>
> Bogodan<BR>
> From the pages of Walter Benjamin:<BR>
> ...an angel looking as though he is about to move<BR>
> away from something he is <BR>
> fixedly contemplating.  His eyes staring, his mouth<BR>
> open, his wings spread.  <BR>
> He is the Angel of History.  His face is turned<BR>
> toward the past.  Where we <BR>
> can perceive a chain of events, he sees a single<BR>
> catastrophe keeps piling <BR>
> wreckage upon wreckage and hurls it in front of his<BR>
> feet.  The Angel would <BR>
> like to stay, awaken the dead, and make whole what<BR>
> has been smashed.  But, a <BR>
> storm is blowing from Paradise; it has caught in his<BR>
> wings with such <BR>
> violence that the angel can no longer close them. <BR>
> The storm irresistibly <BR>
> propels him into the future to which his back is<BR>
> turned, while the debris <BR>
> before him are piled skywards.  This storm we call<BR>
> progress.<BR>
> <BR>
><BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
> Get Your Private, Free Email at<BR>
> http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Um, yeah, okay. I thought dat it was just a game, eh...<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:36:41 -0800<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Deadfall ordinance<BR>
<BR>
>Total Weight is 17402 lbs.  This means for it has the equivalent of<BR>
>17402 lbs of thrust from gravity. VE2/157, Falling.<BR>
>Terminal Velocity in conjunction with the Reactionless Thruster<BR>
>(which is the top speed) is 15780 mph. VE2/157, Falling<BR>
<BR>
Properly designed deadfall ordinance shouldn't reach terminal velocity on the<BR>
way down; air just doesn't have enough time to deccelerate it (and terminal<BR>
velocity for a highly streamlined object is pretty high, anyway.)<BR>
<BR>
Traveller ordinance benifits from being fired from farther away than orbit;<BR>
then a 6G/1 hour reactionless thruster can add 216 km/s, letting the ordinance<BR>
strike with an energy equivalent to about 13 kilotons.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 22:12:06 -0600<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: the perils of television (was Re: LEO's)<BR>
<BR>
>Same thing happens in the legal and medical<BR>
>professions.  Lots of people go to law school and<BR>
>medical school thinking they'll soon have lots of<BR>
>money, nice cars, fascinating professional problems<BR>
>that get solved in an hour or two, and lots of<BR>
>attractive sex partners. ...now that I write the list<BR>
>down, my experience of one out of four still ain't<BR>
>bad.<BR>
><BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
<BR>
What kind of nice car do you have? <g,d&r><BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:30:22 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: GS3/3 Solar Sails (was: Goryo-class Medium Fighter (GTL9) -  corrected)<BR>
<BR>
>Robert Prior writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> A light sail module takes up one space. At GTL8 it has an area of 15 sq<BR>
>> miles, at GTL9+ an area of 240 sq miles.  It provides 10 tons of thrust at<BR>
>> GTL8, 160 tons of thrust at GTL9+.  Mass is 50 tons at all tech levels.<BR>
><BR>
>Note that in GVE2 the thrust is 5.26 lb/square mile (9e-6 newtons/square<BR>
>meter) or 0.63 tons for the above sail.  Assuming a solar flux of 1,400<BR>
>watts/square meter the actual value is 9.3e-6 newtons/m^2, which is<BR>
>reasonable enough.<BR>
<BR>
True enough. I was using the GURPS Space version originally.  It _does_<BR>
need correcting.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> Another try at the equations:<BR>
>><BR>
>> Force = 2 x Power / lightspeed          NOTE: assumes a perfect reflector<BR>
>><BR>
>> The solar power constant for Earth (the baseline GS3/e uses) is 1400 Watts<BR>
>> per square metre. Assuming a square mile (1600 m x 1600 m) the equation<BR>
>> becomes:<BR>
>><BR>
>> Force = 2 x 1600 x 1600 x 1400 / 300,000,000<BR>
>1609 meters, but close enough.<BR>
>><BR>
>> This will be in Newtons per square mile.<BR>
>><BR>
>> (Please check the next bit for boneheaded math error, because I hate<BR>
>> conversions and aren't that good at them.)<BR>
>><BR>
>> To convert Newtons to tonnes-force, I used F=ma where m=1000kg and<BR>
>> a=9.81m/s/s, to get:<BR>
><BR>
>Bear in mind that we're talking US tons, not tonnes, and thus, it is 8900<BR>
>newtons/ton.<BR>
<BR>
I thought I'd corrected for that just below:<BR>
<BR>
me>Finally, there are 0.907 tonnes in a ton, therefore I get:<BR>
me><BR>
me> Force = (2 x 1600 x 1600 x 1400) / (300,000,000 x 981 x 0.907)<BR>
	NOTE: in tons/sq mile<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> Have I made any boneheaded mistakes? Please let me know, so I ccan update<BR>
>> GT Shipyard to create realistic lightsails.<BR>
><BR>
>Factor of 10 error in newtons/ton.<BR>
<BR>
Duh, yup.  &^%$$% calculator has ruined my slide rule ability.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Also, note:<BR>
>A 1-space (50T) sail is 250 square miles with GVE2.  Thrust is 0.66T.<BR>
>Maximum area is 360,000 square miles (1440 modules).<BR>
>A 1-space (490T) TL-8 sail is 15 square miles with a thrust of 0.038T (it<BR>
>has marginally lower thrust); maximum area is 3,600 square miles (240<BR>
>modules)<BR>
<BR>
Both the thrust and the maximum module limits changed. Interesting error.<BR>
<BR>
Back to the code (again). This time I'll use the GVE2 modules, as you've<BR>
shown me that they are plausible.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1423<BR>
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